Injectors

[GSI-TURBO]

Which bosch number does the 550cc injectors have for the phase 4 engine ? because i got a lot injecors over here and i think also the 550cc one's...

Ow and wich pump do i have to use ? because i also have 2 porsche 911 turbo pumps over here !

 

[ASH]

Hi GSI-T!

My actual used 550ccm injectors are no Bosch ones !

In my knowledge there are NO coil resistance compatible injectors with more than 5% additional injection volume than the original calibra ones !

Its a possible way to use the biggest bosch universal fuel pump with 0580 xxx 909 Bosch part number !

Its used originally for Bosch K-Jetronik at MB 500 SE vehicles , with 220l/min flow rate at 5 bar !

The pump is only like 140EUR at any shop !°

regards ASH

 

[Wallace_Perf]

mmm

Arno,

I think that you are slightly wrong here...

There are bosch injectors that flow at 380cc with the same impedance (coil resistance) as the standard LET ones.

These are off a Late SAAB 2.3 Turbo and I think that the last three digits are 308. These are red injectors and should flow at 380cc compared to 311cc on the standard yellow ones.

Also, the phase 3 uses standard injectors at 4.5 bar fuel pressure and my colleague has worked out that this will give the same fuel delivery as the red injectors at 3.0 bar.

Would it be a wise move to use red injectors and raise the fuel pressure to 3.5 bar??

Regards

Gavin Wallace
Wallace Performance

 

[JohnM]

Had Richie's Saab injectors on my flowbench and they had a fair amount of extra capacity over O.E. spec injectors.

HOWEVER HAD MY OWN ORIGINAL INJECTORS ON THE FLOWBENCH LAST WEEK AND REALISED ONE IMPORTANT POINT.

The original C20LET injectors were specifically designed with an offset 20-30 degree spray pattern to direct the fuel towards the inlet valve.

I haven't seen another injector with this spray pattern.

Obviously for high horsepower you have no alternative but to go to another injector but for those seeking only a modest power increase I would say stick with the standard injector if possible.

Regards

JohnM

 

[Mel]

Obviously for high horsepower you have no alternative but to go to another injector but for those seeking only a modest power increase I would say stick with the standard injector if possible.

John,
your comments on my setup then please:
Phase 1
FMIC
Uprated FPR (3.5 bar)

Although I am still waiting to get on a 4x4 RR, and don't know the actual torque I am getting, it does run and feel very eager!! Even at very light throttle openings, the PH 1 is better than the original chipset, it just runs better all round .
Am I ok on the standard injectors?
Would you agree that I could be getting as much as 286 bhp?
Ph 1 = 260, + 10% for the FMIC = 286?

 

[JohnM]

Hi Mel

I don't profess to know much about the Phase chips but no doubt you should be able to get some definitive answers on this forum.

As far as I am aware the Phase 1, 2 & 3 chips all use the standard injectors. The increased fuelling requirements being taken care of by increasing fuel pressure.

I would expect the Phase 1 and Phase 2 chips to have have different fuel maps. Phase 1 at 3.0bar and Phase 2 at 3.5 bar.

If the Phase 1 chip is designed for using 3 bar fuel pressure then you will be over fuelling at 3.5 bar.

I would not expect your mods to give a cumulative increase in power. The Phase 1 with I/C should be better than with the chip alone but I would not expect the same results as with the Phase 2 kit. It will be interesting to see what power output you get on the rollers.

As I said in my earlier post I belive that the standard injectors are best as long as they can provide sufficient fuel. I wouldn't want to go above 4.0 bar though.

Regards

JohnM

 

[ASH]

Hi Gavin !

of course you are right , there are some additional injectors from bosch with a higher flow rate than the LET ones , but put them on a flow bench , and compare their flow rate at diffrent fuel pressures and their type of spraypicture !

The LET ones are the only injectors with the 20-30° spray angle !

When you use other types you have to modifie massive your injection lookup tables , makes this really sence ?

You have to buy 4 new injectors only to reduce fuel pressure ?

Thats wasted money !

regards ASH

 

[JohnM]

I agree with Ash.

Firstly the injector used in the C20LET was designed specifically for that engine. I haven't yet seen another injector with the same spray pattern although there could be one.

I don't think many people realise just how different the spray patterns are. If this wasn't the case then the injector manufacturers would only need 1 or 2 to cover all applications, instead of the scores that they actually have.

The other point is the fueling curve in the ECU. This is mapped using a specific injector at a specific fuel pressure. If either of these are changed then the ECU will not provide the correct amount of fuel. Fine if you have programmable ECU or chip and you set it up on a dyno, but if its a plug in chip with fixed values then you should stick with the specs used by the chip programmer.

JohnM

 

[Russ]

Although I can't deny the spray pattern and angle stuff, I can see why people would rather have a bit more "headroom" for the injectors.

John, the reds at 3bar flow approx the same as the yellows at 4.5bar. So by running the reds at 3.5 bar, as Gav suggested, would allow for a little bit more breathing space, without going completely out of the maps range.
Why wouldn't you run above 4 bar?

Arno, what people are worried about is that running the yellows so close to their limit does not allow for any problems with them - we are relying on them being working exactly as the should be, with no lack of performance or drop in efficiency.

On a lighter note, how the hell do you get your fuel system to hold together running 6 bar!!

 

[JohnM]

Hi Russ.

I certainly agree that having a bit of headroom is a good thing but the points I was making were

1, If the chip is mapped for a specific injector and pressure then altering either will upset the mapping

and

2. If the standard injector is able to supply sufficient fuel then it is a better option than a higher flowing one which is directing the fuel against the port walls rather than down the inlect tract.

As regards running at higher fuel pressures this is just a personal thing. I've tested quite a few fuel pumps and haven't ran one yet that was happy at higher pressures.
Stand-by for someone with part numbers.......

Pressure testing the standard setup will put the system under 5 bar pressure but if I was running this all the time I'd be much happier after changing some of the pipework and fittings.

Incidentally if Mel is out there will be interested in any RR power figures when they're taken.

Suspect that with the large I/C, power figures on the RR will probably be less than what you'll actually acheive on the road.

JohnM

 

[Russ]

Sorry to go on about this, but about your point 1;
AFAIK, the motronic will be able to "adjust" by around 10% above and below the map. So, hopefully, the reds at 3.5 bar will work ok.
So far, everyone I know who has tried them hasn't had any real trouble, even running at 4.5 bar with a phase III.

Your point 2 I guess is more important, and even if these reds do an adequate job, they are unlikely to be as suitable as the yellows. If you can hang on long enough, I'll do some testing!

I'm just about to put a replacement fuel pump on my car, because I keep getting the bloody lambda cut
It's not the one Arno quotes though, but apparently it flows 195litres/hour at 3 bar as opposed to the original 85 litres/hour at 3 bar.
Hopefully this will sort the problem. If not, I'll need to find out about this fuel pickup modification that the EDS guys have been doing - Arno?!?

 

[Mel]

Incidentally if Mel is out there will be interested in any RR power figures when they're taken.

Ok , I am still waiting on a block booking with some work colleagues.

To add evidence to Russ's reply to point 1.
since uprating the fuel pressure , I have noticed my fuel computor shows better mpg all round , it's hard to estimate exactly because my driving conditions vary alot at this time of year. But, I would say it's reading 10-15% better than before. I assumed this is due to the lambda sensor bringing the fueling back within limits, by the ecu reducing the duty cycle of the injectors.
Does it then store the new data , so it only has to learn it during the 1st few hundred miles?
Am I right in saying the lambda sensor is ignored above 3000rpm? If so does that mean John's point 1 is valid above this threshold?

 

[JohnM]

Hi Mel

You've got the point I was making.

I accept that the ECU will adjust the fuelling +/- depending on lambda readings.

Most but not all systems only operate in closed loop mode up to a certain rev limit and only up to certain throttle openings.

I thing Russ is of the opinion that the EDS phase3 chip operates in closed loop all the time.

The only manufacturer that I know who uses closed loop continuous operation is Honda.


However they do not use the same type of lambda sensor. They use a UEGO. This has a much wider range than the usual lambda sensor.,(HEGO). Its output is much more linear and far more accurate. It does not suffer the same degradation in performance with age as the HEGO type as fitted to the Calibra.

Hence my concerns.

I would be very happy to see a Phase chip produced that operated continually in closed loop mode and that utilised 1 or even 2 UEGO's.

I would probably be first in line to buy one.

Unfortunately the UEGO is not a direct substitute for the HEGO as it requires a seperate controller.

A little more information on the exact working of the Phase chips would be welcome. And if anyone from EDS reads these posts........any chance of a system using the Bosch or NTK UEGO?


JohnM

 

[Mel]

thanks John, i hope to get on to a RR within the next 2-3 weeks, so I will be driving carefully until I have confirmation my fueling is ok. That's not hard at the moment as our roads are full up with tourists at this time of year - roll on September!!

 

[ASH]

Hi Guys°

Sorry for the late reply !

1) We tested the LET injectors up th 10bar fuel pressure on a test bench , after this pressure the magnatic coil looses power even at low power supply voltage <11 V , and couldn open accurately the valve !

So in my eyes its only important , that the supply voltage should never come below 12V in the car , in the case of a broken generator , drive slowly !

2) Please replace the old GM rubber hoses to new ones with 20bar pressure range , thats better , even the original fuel pressure is sometimes too much for the OE parts !

3) The HEGO standart circon-oxyd-lambdasensor shows very clear the range between lambda 1.00 and 0.8 , its only very temperatur dependend , but at full load and 800°C exhaust temp . its working fine !
In the Phase+ Kits im abel to detect exactly the point of no return , where i shut down the boost , and belive me , we tested much , its working !

the only good fuel pump for a higher fuel pressure is the universal replacement bosch pump 0580 xxx 909 !
It can serve 225L/min at 5Bar system pressure !!!!!

So even at 8 bar its over 190L/min , thats enough for a good flow rate !

regards ASH

 

[JohnM]

Thank you for the post Ash.

Do the Phase 3 & 4 chips operate closed loop at all revs and throttle openings?

AND.......any chance of a Phase chip using the far superior UEGO sensor.


Regards

JohnM.

 

[Richie]

Ash - I had enquired at Bosch UK about a replacement fuel pump for the car and they informed me that the STANDARD fuel pump now supplied by Vauxhall for the C20LET was rated to 195 l/hour @ 3 bar (IIRC)

The original pump was only 90-ish l/hour but if you go for a replacement then they should be giving you a pump with the new larger flow. I'll dig out the part number as its at home somewhere (think Gav knows it to)



The injectors from the Saab are Bosch part - 0280 150 431. These give 380cc/min @ 3 bar and 100%IDC.

Here is a small bit of info on them - http://reimari.saunalahti.fi/~vpv/injectors.htm


Running the 4.5 bar reg with it will give you around 430cc/min !!!!!