Acki
Meta, wirst keine gescheite Antwort kriegen. Der KDFI Macher wollte es ja Aug offiziell machen.
Freiprogrammierbare Steuerung! Nur welche nehmen?
Diskutiere Freiprogrammierbare Steuerung! Nur welche nehmen? im Technik-Smalltalk Forum im Bereich Technik; Meta, wirst keine gescheite Antwort kriegen. Der KDFI Macher wollte es ja Aug offiziell machen.
- Freiprogrammierbare Steuerung! Nur welche nehmen?
Anzeige
hamon motors .
DD
Gerade wieder ein paar am umbauen:
LET-STG ab, Megasquirt dran. LMM fällt weg und wer will, kann auch den Zündverteiler gegen eine Doppelzündspule tauschen.
LET-STG ab, Megasquirt dran. LMM fällt weg und wer will, kann auch den Zündverteiler gegen eine Doppelzündspule tauschen.
Gromo_seiner
- Dabei seit
- 24.11.2007
- Beiträge
- 455
- Punkte Reaktionen
- 0
Müsste man eigentlich mit Plexiglas-Deckel fahren 
Saubere Arbeit!
Saubere Arbeit!
f_calibra
Mehr ist das nicht? :shock:
Metaworld82
Das was da DD verbaut ist aus Copyrighttechnischen Gründen ganz Offziell eine Garagentorsteuerung. Eine Derviat vom MS2 Prozessor.
Was der Endverbraucher daraus macht kann ja der Hersteller nicht wissen Hardwaretechnisch wirklich gut gelöst vorallem auf den Treiberseiten mehr als Ausreichend Dimensionert.
Die Kleine ist schon echt schnucklig. Aber aufgrund der größe müssen ein Paar Abstriche gemacht werden. Ich glaube die ist so groß wie ne Kippenschachtel.
Man darf halt eins nicht vergessen. Bei der Megasquirt handelt es sich bis um MS3 Prozessor um Open Source für Reperatur und Umbauzwecke. Ein Nachbau sowie die Verwendung der Software auf etwas anderen als Bowling&Grippo Hardware ist untersagt.
Irgendwann stirbt so ein Projekt weil die Leute keine Bock haben echt geile Sachen zu machen und es aber nix Überbleibt zum leben und Entwicklung.
Auch Support und extra Wünschen finden meist Gehör wenn es sinnvoll ist, dann wird das auch mal eben innerhalb in einer Woche umgesetzt.
Was der Endverbraucher daraus macht kann ja der Hersteller nicht wissen
Hardwaretechnisch wirklich gut gelöst vorallem auf den Treiberseiten mehr als Ausreichend Dimensionert.Die Kleine ist schon echt schnucklig. Aber aufgrund der größe müssen ein Paar Abstriche gemacht werden. Ich glaube die ist so groß wie ne Kippenschachtel.
Man darf halt eins nicht vergessen. Bei der Megasquirt handelt es sich bis um MS3 Prozessor um Open Source für Reperatur und Umbauzwecke. Ein Nachbau sowie die Verwendung der Software auf etwas anderen als Bowling&Grippo Hardware ist untersagt.
Irgendwann stirbt so ein Projekt weil die Leute keine Bock haben echt geile Sachen zu machen und es aber nix Überbleibt zum leben und Entwicklung.
Auch Support und extra Wünschen finden meist Gehör wenn es sinnvoll ist, dann wird das auch mal eben innerhalb in einer Woche umgesetzt.
Metaworld82
So für alle die mal viel Zeit zum lesen haben. Hierbei ging es um die KDFI von K-DATA
Anyway, B&G responded:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowling & Grippo
Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo here...
Let us make our comment on this... This unit does not have License Agreement in place for reproducing MegaSquirt hardware. Reproduction of MS requires a specific license agreement for the end product if it encompasses MegaSquirt IP. MegaSquirt hardware and control algorithms are patented, and the code is the respective copyright of the authors.
For those who do not know, MegaSquirt is an EMS where the hardware and software are freely available and documented for users to read, modify, and extend for their own use. Duplication of the hardware for commercial resale is permitted with a license agreement, this is straightforward to obtain (as several have done). In addition, resources for MegaSquirt, including documentation, forum support, etc are funded by the sale of MegaSquirt units and are only available to licensed MS derivatives.
With this said, let us offer a few unstructured sentences on the hardware presented here... We have struggled with the double-edged sword of making the hardware and software for MS easily available to individuals who want to learn engine controls, along with documentation that pulls the whole design together. We could keep everything hidden and secret in order to protect the IP. However, we feel that the subject of engine control is very complex and thus we have revealed the inner working of the unit as an educational tool.
The problem of having the entire project available is theft. This is the double-edged sword aspect in which we struggle with every day. It would be OK if it just affected us.. however, the project is more complex and the effect is greater than just B&G. In any effort, including MegaSquirt, the need for funding is real in order to keep it alive and available for a long time, as well as keeping it improving over time. The proceeds of resales of MS are used to keep forums up and running, fund MegaSquirt meets, and fund future projects (like MSIII, which is moving along nicely and will be a smartly-integrated, fully-functional unit).
In addition, the liberal means for a organization (or person) to become a MegaSquirt reseller has lead to many new companies that make their living reselling MS products - they would not exist today had it not been for the mechanism set in place to become a reseller. These individuals have followed the path of assisting the MS project and are feeding their families on the small profits they earn from the resell efforts they provide. Its a lot of work for the relatively small profit margin they earn. So, not only has MegaSquirt provided education on engine control, it has provided a method for people to make a living doing something the like to do.
So whenever we see a theft of MegaSquirt, we realize that this impacts many people who depend on MS for their income. We also find it real interesting that the theft efforts are always the same - change a few things around and declare it superior. For some reason the theft is always just to duplicate what has already been done. There are literally thousands of different aspects of automotive control that is waiting for someone to tackle (e.g. ion sensing, traction control, etc), but its always a rehash of what's already been done. We all yearn for truly new, not a repeat of the same. But it is easy to produce a rehash (especially when everything is open for view) than it is to come up with something new and innovative - or maybe its lack of knowledge in the areas required to pull a new system together.
Many people know that MegaSquirt is purposely uncomplicated and the feature sets are specifically versatile to allow different configurations. We believe in a modular approach in MS, allowing the user to integrate MS as part of a larger system where the user makes the choices on what to use.
From our "perch" as developers and maintainers of an EMS unit we have learned quite a lot, and we want to comment on a few features that counterfeit units often have:
- On MS products we have kept the RS-232 serial port as the communications port. There is a reason for this and its not that we are too dumb to add USB (or need to wake-up). We realize that serial ports are no longer offered as standard products on laptops. However, the issue is interoperability of all of the various USB devices and the real problems that arise. In many of the products the USB port interface is one of three vendors - Ftdi, Silicon Labs, or Prolific. The issue is that if a user already has another USB device with the same chipset then conflict may occur, it depends on the driver. Its a real issue for people and not an easy one to fix. We have many indicate that they cannot get Ftdi to work but Prolific works, and vice-versa. And if the USB interface chip is soldered down on the EMS, and it does not work with your laptop, then you may be out of luck (but you should demand that the seller either fix the problem or refund the money - hopefully they are still around and have not gone away...).
Serial-to-USB cables are inexpensive (like $10) and are available with different chipsets. And once the Virtual Com and cable work, then all of your RS-232 devices also work. In our minds the correct way to implement USB is with a USB controller and drivers which are developed in-house and the interface is solid for many installations. Using serial port replacement chips can be real support headaches
- Wideband controllers on-board the EMS. Again, its the aspect of choice, and when someone makes this for you you are stuck with it for the long term. I do not know anything about the JAW setup, it may be excellent. And I believe that the developer also posted circuits and schematics. However its the same thing, if it does not work then who do you go to - the JAW person, or the EMS person who put down the circuit? Maybe both point to each other to direct for support? And what if you do not want to use JAW, but maybe Innovate, PLX, etc? What if you blow up the on-board WB controller, who fixes it? If its a SMT board and there is a problem, then its outside of the capabilities of most so the board *must* go back to the reseller for repair/replacement (demand this).
Maybe the JAW developer, who put his resources into the product, swhould get the sale of the JAW controller - instead of being cut out entirely. Again, when it support time...
- The "my tach circuit is better than your tach circuit..." We *love* this one! The reality is that for some installs obtaining a good tach signal can be difficult. And sometimes switching EMS units the tach works. Whats interesting is that in another installation, the exact opposite occurs - the non-working EMS now works and the other one doesn't. Go look on all of the major EMS vendors support site - you will see lots of posts on obtaining a decent tach input. You will also see lots of success stories of working installations. Same thing with MegaSquirt - there are installs with tach issues, an there are many thousands of running installations with no tach issues at all. Its the nature of the beast.
With MegaSquirt the approach is for people to try to understand where the noise is coming from and provide remedies to correct. The MegaSquirt tach input is very sensitive, needed for low-output signals during cranking. It can also pick up noise, so its a tradeoff. But since you have the circuit diagram, and it is documented and understood, you then have the tools to correct if you have issues. Again, flexibility and user-choice is key.
There is a lot to a tah input, noise is one aspect. Noise can be corrected with a filter on the VR input but this then indroduces phase shifts in the signal at higher RPMs - so now the zero crossing has shifted and the timing also shifts as well. Something to watch out for.
Finally, be sure that there is a lot of new items on the horizon, these are new and innovative, not rehashes of whats already been done. The whole EMS thing needs to be taken to the next level.
This is all we have to say on the subject. And we thank those who have supported the MS project.
B&G
Anyway, B&G responded:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowling & Grippo
Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo here...
Let us make our comment on this... This unit does not have License Agreement in place for reproducing MegaSquirt hardware. Reproduction of MS requires a specific license agreement for the end product if it encompasses MegaSquirt IP. MegaSquirt hardware and control algorithms are patented, and the code is the respective copyright of the authors.
For those who do not know, MegaSquirt is an EMS where the hardware and software are freely available and documented for users to read, modify, and extend for their own use. Duplication of the hardware for commercial resale is permitted with a license agreement, this is straightforward to obtain (as several have done). In addition, resources for MegaSquirt, including documentation, forum support, etc are funded by the sale of MegaSquirt units and are only available to licensed MS derivatives.
With this said, let us offer a few unstructured sentences on the hardware presented here... We have struggled with the double-edged sword of making the hardware and software for MS easily available to individuals who want to learn engine controls, along with documentation that pulls the whole design together. We could keep everything hidden and secret in order to protect the IP. However, we feel that the subject of engine control is very complex and thus we have revealed the inner working of the unit as an educational tool.
The problem of having the entire project available is theft. This is the double-edged sword aspect in which we struggle with every day. It would be OK if it just affected us.. however, the project is more complex and the effect is greater than just B&G. In any effort, including MegaSquirt, the need for funding is real in order to keep it alive and available for a long time, as well as keeping it improving over time. The proceeds of resales of MS are used to keep forums up and running, fund MegaSquirt meets, and fund future projects (like MSIII, which is moving along nicely and will be a smartly-integrated, fully-functional unit).
In addition, the liberal means for a organization (or person) to become a MegaSquirt reseller has lead to many new companies that make their living reselling MS products - they would not exist today had it not been for the mechanism set in place to become a reseller. These individuals have followed the path of assisting the MS project and are feeding their families on the small profits they earn from the resell efforts they provide. Its a lot of work for the relatively small profit margin they earn. So, not only has MegaSquirt provided education on engine control, it has provided a method for people to make a living doing something the like to do.
So whenever we see a theft of MegaSquirt, we realize that this impacts many people who depend on MS for their income. We also find it real interesting that the theft efforts are always the same - change a few things around and declare it superior. For some reason the theft is always just to duplicate what has already been done. There are literally thousands of different aspects of automotive control that is waiting for someone to tackle (e.g. ion sensing, traction control, etc), but its always a rehash of what's already been done. We all yearn for truly new, not a repeat of the same. But it is easy to produce a rehash (especially when everything is open for view) than it is to come up with something new and innovative - or maybe its lack of knowledge in the areas required to pull a new system together.
Many people know that MegaSquirt is purposely uncomplicated and the feature sets are specifically versatile to allow different configurations. We believe in a modular approach in MS, allowing the user to integrate MS as part of a larger system where the user makes the choices on what to use.
From our "perch" as developers and maintainers of an EMS unit we have learned quite a lot, and we want to comment on a few features that counterfeit units often have:
- On MS products we have kept the RS-232 serial port as the communications port. There is a reason for this and its not that we are too dumb to add USB (or need to wake-up). We realize that serial ports are no longer offered as standard products on laptops. However, the issue is interoperability of all of the various USB devices and the real problems that arise. In many of the products the USB port interface is one of three vendors - Ftdi, Silicon Labs, or Prolific. The issue is that if a user already has another USB device with the same chipset then conflict may occur, it depends on the driver. Its a real issue for people and not an easy one to fix. We have many indicate that they cannot get Ftdi to work but Prolific works, and vice-versa. And if the USB interface chip is soldered down on the EMS, and it does not work with your laptop, then you may be out of luck (but you should demand that the seller either fix the problem or refund the money - hopefully they are still around and have not gone away...).
Serial-to-USB cables are inexpensive (like $10) and are available with different chipsets. And once the Virtual Com and cable work, then all of your RS-232 devices also work. In our minds the correct way to implement USB is with a USB controller and drivers which are developed in-house and the interface is solid for many installations. Using serial port replacement chips can be real support headaches
- Wideband controllers on-board the EMS. Again, its the aspect of choice, and when someone makes this for you you are stuck with it for the long term. I do not know anything about the JAW setup, it may be excellent. And I believe that the developer also posted circuits and schematics. However its the same thing, if it does not work then who do you go to - the JAW person, or the EMS person who put down the circuit? Maybe both point to each other to direct for support? And what if you do not want to use JAW, but maybe Innovate, PLX, etc? What if you blow up the on-board WB controller, who fixes it? If its a SMT board and there is a problem, then its outside of the capabilities of most so the board *must* go back to the reseller for repair/replacement (demand this).
Maybe the JAW developer, who put his resources into the product, swhould get the sale of the JAW controller - instead of being cut out entirely. Again, when it support time...
- The "my tach circuit is better than your tach circuit..." We *love* this one! The reality is that for some installs obtaining a good tach signal can be difficult. And sometimes switching EMS units the tach works. Whats interesting is that in another installation, the exact opposite occurs - the non-working EMS now works and the other one doesn't. Go look on all of the major EMS vendors support site - you will see lots of posts on obtaining a decent tach input. You will also see lots of success stories of working installations. Same thing with MegaSquirt - there are installs with tach issues, an there are many thousands of running installations with no tach issues at all. Its the nature of the beast.
With MegaSquirt the approach is for people to try to understand where the noise is coming from and provide remedies to correct. The MegaSquirt tach input is very sensitive, needed for low-output signals during cranking. It can also pick up noise, so its a tradeoff. But since you have the circuit diagram, and it is documented and understood, you then have the tools to correct if you have issues. Again, flexibility and user-choice is key.
There is a lot to a tah input, noise is one aspect. Noise can be corrected with a filter on the VR input but this then indroduces phase shifts in the signal at higher RPMs - so now the zero crossing has shifted and the timing also shifts as well. Something to watch out for.
Finally, be sure that there is a lot of new items on the horizon, these are new and innovative, not rehashes of whats already been done. The whole EMS thing needs to be taken to the next level.
This is all we have to say on the subject. And we thank those who have supported the MS project.
B&G
Sven PH.4
@ECU481
sind für 2011 wieder Schulungen in Planung?
sind für 2011 wieder Schulungen in Planung?
Acki
Meta, er wollte es offiziell machen und da führte kein Weg rein.
Das Gehäuse Design und Größe sind einfach Amistyle.
Und so wirklich Open Source ist es mit der MS3 auch nicht mehr.
Das Gehäuse Design und Größe sind einfach Amistyle.
Und so wirklich Open Source ist es mit der MS3 auch nicht mehr.
E
ecu481
@Sven PH.4 : Ja, bin gerade schon wieder am Sammeln von Interessenten. Plan ist so Ende September/Anfang Oktober, je nach Interessenlage und Bedarf. Einfach 'ne Mail schicken, dann werde ich entsprechend benachrichtigen ...
Metaworld82
@Acki Warum wohl ist MS3 von der Hard und Software ein Buch mit Sieben Siegeln? Warum hat er es nicht Lizensiert bekommen? Gründe?
Acki
Weil das Projekt zu Kommerz wird und die Jungs gefallen am Geld gefunden haben. Ist ja auch ok. Aber wie in der letzten großen Diskussionen im Ami Forum, ne MS2 sieht wie nen Haufen Elektroschrott aus wenn man die offizielle nutzt. Kabel Kreuz und quer, Haufen ungenutzter Platz weil jede Eventualität abgedeckt ist. Das ist Mist. Kleine schlanke Platinen.
Dort ging es auch um die Kdfi, angeblich hätte der Zodl abgelehnt - irgendwo in der Mitte wird die Wahrheit liegen.
2000 Dollar und 4% wollen die.
Genaueres wirst du ja bald wissen.
Die MS3 ist geil, Gehäuse und Sandwich Bauweise gewinnt keinen Schönheitswettbewerb... Kann viel, einige Sache sind etwas unglücklich (meine Meinung) gelöst aber immer noch besser als bei den meisten anderen Steuerungen.
Dort ging es auch um die Kdfi, angeblich hätte der Zodl abgelehnt - irgendwo in der Mitte wird die Wahrheit liegen.
2000 Dollar und 4% wollen die.
Genaueres wirst du ja bald wissen.
Die MS3 ist geil, Gehäuse und Sandwich Bauweise gewinnt keinen Schönheitswettbewerb... Kann viel, einige Sache sind etwas unglücklich (meine Meinung) gelöst aber immer noch besser als bei den meisten anderen Steuerungen.
Thema:
